Audio & Rush Transcript: Governor Cuomo is a Guest on MSNBC With Rachel Maddow and Brian Williams

Earlier today, Governor Andrew M. Cuomo was a guest on MSNBC with Rachel Maddow and Brian William to discuss New York's plan to combat the novel coronavirus crisis.

AUDIO is available here.

A rush transcript of the Governor's interview is available below:

Rachel Maddow: Governor Cuomo, thank you for taking the time. I know this is an incredibly busy time for you.

Governor Cuomo: My pleasure. Good to be with you, Rachel.

Rachel Maddow: You announced as far as New York State can tell from the current models, the number of cases in the state may not peak for another 45 days. Could you explain it to our audience what that means and how you arrived at that and how sobering that is in terms of New York's capacity to deal with this?

Governor Cuomo: Well, this is all sobering, right? If you go back and you study the China model, the China trajectory, South Korea, Italy, etcetera, some of the other countries, the big question is what is the apex, what is the rise of the number of cases, and can the health care system handle it? That's what this is really about, right? We know the mortality rate with this virus. We know who it affects. The problem is it communicates so quickly, can your health care system handle it? That's the problem Italy has. So we're trying to project when the numbers get highest and the models that we've run suggest that in about 45 days you'll be at the high point. As you said, 55,000 to 100,000 cases which does overwhelm our health care system. Even worse, Rachel, most people will need ICU beds. Most people will need ventilators. That's why you hear so much about the ventilators. It's a respiratory illness. We only have about 3,000. We would need about 30,000. And by the way, you can't get ventilators. So that's what it's all about - overwhelming the health care system.

Rachel Maddow: In terms of the options that New York has to try to avoid that eventuality or try to minimize that as much as possible, obviously every day brings an evolution in the policy response here. Today, it seemed like you and the Mayor of New York City might have been at odds over whether the city specifically should consider a shelter in place, stay in your home order like has been instituted in the San Francisco Bay area. Mayor de Blasio said it's under consideration but your office put out a statement saying it's not under consideration. What's going on there?

Governor Cuomo: Well, they are talking about it in New York City as a possible option, shelter in place. We have a lot of local communities across the state talking about different options and everybody has an opinion in this case. From my point of view, I need a statewide plan that works and a plan that doesn't shift people from one place to another place. The population in New York is very mobile. If New York City puts a policy in place that people don't like, they'll just move to Nassau, they'll go to Westchester, they'll stay with their brother, they'll stay with their sister. I've gone through this with other emergencies. So whatever we do, we have to do it statewide. But we've taken it a step further in New York. I'm doing policies jointly with New Jersey and Connecticut and now we're bringing in Pennsylvania, because none of these policies work unless you have a big enough geographic area.

We just closed bars, for example. If you close the bars in New York, people will drive to New Jersey or they'll drive to Connecticut. That actually makes the situation worse. So you need policies that are a big enough geographic area that they'll work, rather than people just move to the next suburb where they can stay with a friend or family member. And that's very important. You say to a New Yorker, Iwas born and bred New York City Queens boy - we're very good at getting around rules, Rachel. So if you say to me, well if you're in queens, you have to shelter in place, you can't leave, I'll go stay with my sister in Westchester. That's how I'll handle it. We need statewide policies that work.

Rachel Maddow: Well are you considering a statewide shelter in place order or indeed a tri-state order? I ask because what's happening in California right now doesn't seem to be a parochial decision. It's about 7 million people who are within the range of that six county shelter in place order. I've spoken with epidemiologists including some of the most prominent epidemiologists in the world who say that is the direction that we're going. Is it something, if it were statewide, if it was in conjunction with the tri-state governors, that you would consider as a larger-scale order?

Governor Cuomo: Yeah, well, I think you have to have more than a comprehensive approach. You tell people for example, you close schools. Okay. We close schools. Sounds good. Okay, now what happened to child care? And how does my policeman come to work or my firefighter come to work or my nurse come to work which is essential because it's about the healthcare system. So if you really want to close schools, then if you wanted shoes, then you have to put a child care system in place which we did. You want to shelter in place, what you're really saying is we're closing the businesses, right? Because if you can't come out of your house, then every business shuts down in the city. If that's what you want to do, do it that way. Shut down businesses, that will reduce the density. So, what is the goal and what is the best way to get there and how do you do it on a geographic basis? To shut down all businesses in the State of New York is a very big deal, especially when other states aren't shutting down, right? Because now you'll have a question for a business, "Well maybe I go to Miami, maybe I go to North Carolina, maybe I go to Chicago. So all these policies have to be thought through, I get it, the optimum would be, just from a disease control point of view, everybody stay home, nobody go outside, we'll figure out how to get you a meal. No doubt that's the best strategy to stop the spread of the disease.

Brian Williams: Governor, it's Brian. Do you have a formula or theory for how many positive cases are likely out there in your state if we, in fact, were able to test on demand?

Governor Cuomo: Tens of thousands. I think we're kidding ourselves, Brian, with these tests. All the tests are telling us is how many tests we are taking. We were so slow on testing that the virus got way ahead of us. I believe there were tens of thousands of people in New York who had the virus and resolved and never knew they had it. So we now look at these numbers like we're looking at the stock market. The numbers are just a reflection of how many tests we're taking, we're up to 10,000 tests. So now we have close to 1,500 people who tested positive. That's only because we took 10,000 tests. We were so slow in the testing as a nation, but I would bet you dollars to donuts that the number of cases are exponentially larger than what we're actually seeing. And I think there's actually good news in that. I think if we could test, and we're trying to test the antibodies in New York, you would find that people had it and resolved and I think that would relax some of this fear. You know, we're talking about it like it's a death sentence, right? I handled the Ebola situation. Ebola was close to a death sentence. Coronavirus is not, but that's how we're talking about it. And I literally want to find ways to test people to prove that they were exposed and resolved and I think that would actually bring some calm rather than having the fear so outpace the facts on this situation.

Brian Williams: You were the first to raise the Army Corps of Engineers, people who come in and build big projects on little or no notice. Project for us into the future. Do you see a New York City, New York State where adjacent to your major hospitals you're going to have tent cities, certainly outdoor triage, maybe containerized shipping, maybe RVs where people are living.

Governor Cuomo: Yeah. Brian, we have only three possible strategies. Number one, flatten the curve as they all say. They talk about a curve. I see it as a wave. It's not a curve. It's a wave. The question is when does that wave break and when does it crash onto the hospital system. So you flatten the curve by tightening the density controls. We did that yesterday closing bars, restaurants, gyms, etcetera. The next move is to start limiting businesses. Second, increase the existing hospital capacity. I spoke to all the hospital administrators today. We have about 50,000 beds. I said, tell me how we can just maximize your physical space in your existing hospital, and how high can we get that 50,000 beds up. And then, third, build more medical facilities. You can't build an ICU bed, it's too technical, you don't have enough ventilators. You could build a medical facility to get people from the hospital into that medical facility and then open up that hospital bed. But I'm looking at dormitories, I'm looking at closed senior citizen homes. I don't want to get to the point of tents, et cetera. And on that regard I've been talking to president trump. We're working in partnership. And he has activated the federal government. We're looking at the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to come in and help us build and construct, FEMA to help us come in with emergency supplies but that's the third strategy if you will, build new beds in 45 days if that's even possible.

Rachel Maddow: Governor, just to be clear in terms of your partnership as you described it with President Trump, there's obviously been friction there, there always is, even in normal political times between federal and state leaders in times like this. Do you feel like you're working constructively with the federal government now, with that kind of urgent planning process thatyou're talking about right now for getting those things built in a matter of weeks. Do you feel like you and the federal government are growing in the same direction?

Governor Cuomo: I think it's fair to say, Rachel, that my relationship with the President went beyond mere state and federal institutional frictions. We have had significant differences, there is no doubt about that. I have for many years and I have been very outspoken about it as has he. But I had a very good conversation with the President where I said, look, forget Democrat and Republican. We're Americans and we're talking life and death. We're going to have a tragedy in this state. We have the highest number of cases in the United States. We are going to have a real tragedy where people die because they couldn't get the right health care.And I need the help of the federal government - I need that partnership. I'm a former cabinet secretary in the Clinton administration. I was Secretary of Housing and Urban development. I did disasters all across the country. I know the potential of the federal government and we need it here. And I said I I put out my hand in partnership. I want to work with you. I'll be a good partner. I need your help. Let's do what we were elected to do. Let's fulfill our constitutional duty and the President said yes. I believe he's sincere. More than just belief, he has acted on it, Rachel. I spoke to the Secretary of Defense today. I got a call from the White House team late last night, early this morning. I have the Army Corps of Engineers coming in here tomorrow. So, I believe he is doing - He's doing what he has to do and I respect him for it. I respect him for it.

Brian Williams: Andrew Cuomo, Governor the State of New York as we are wishing, imploring all of our guests tonight, thank you, and be well most importantly.

Governor Cuomo: Thank you.